Dorian Yates - Dr. Ken Kinakin Podcast 4-1
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[00:00:00] Dorian Gates is a six time Olympian, incredible physique at time, and he basically destroyed all of his competitors. One of the things that I really appreciate about Dorian, number one, is that he used a very innovative type of training. He actually instigated, researched, and really tried to figure out what worked for him.
Now he's going to try and pass that information on to everyone else. So let me bring Dorian on here. Thanks for having me on, Ken. It was a pleasure last time I was out in Canada and, uh, You know, meeting all the other great athletes out there and everything. So unfortunately, we can't do it in person now.
But you know, we got we got the internet. So we're doing it remotely. But anyway, it's a pleasure and good to be able to get the information out there to people. Can you talk a little bit about how you got into bodybuilding and then innovative training style that was [00:01:00] actually opposite of what everyone else was doing?
Well, I was first introduced to, uh, weight training. I was doing karate when I was a kid, like 15, coming towards the end of school, I was doing karate. And, um, then at the same gym. Which, funnily enough, many, many years later became my gym. But anyway, initially it was a Kung Fu gym, Kung Fu Karate. And they had a small weight gym in there.
And I was doing the Kung Fu and Karate and I was a huge Bruce Lee fan. Like a lot of people from my generation when I was a kid had the Bruce Lee posters and everything. Um, so I was Karate, um, and then I started doing a little weights. And, um, I don't know, it's just, it's like, just fell in love with it, or it just seemed right for me, even more than the karate, just this, uh, felt right, and [00:02:00] it suited me.
And, uh, I was getting into that, and I saw the Pumpin Iron movie. They showed in a small, like, I don't know, 40 seater cinema at the university or something. It wasn't a mainstream movie. I get to see that with the guys from the gym who are mostly older than me. Um, I started buying the magazines and then at 16, um, I left home and I didn't really have stability.
I wasn't, I didn't really have anywhere, uh, to stay. I didn't have my family around me. It was kind of just living at friends houses and stuff like that. And I wasn't able to, uh, to go to the gym for various reasons. I couldn't really afford it. And my lifestyle wasn't ideal. Um, I kind of fell in with, I don't know, like, with a kind of gang culture, nothing like super serious like now, but anyway, you know, it's a bunch of kids with skinheads and, uh, Um, kind of, you know, when you don't [00:03:00] have a family, you form a family with your friends and so on, so that's how it was.
I got into a bit of trouble and got sent to a youth jail for a few months. And in there was the idea is you get these kids and, you know, you give them discipline. It's like a military style regime. And, um, one of the things we did was, was fitness and, uh, they had weights there as well. So they had like a power lifting program.
And, uh, I started doing the weights in there again, and it became apparent to myself and the, the other guys in there and the staff and everybody that. I kind of stood out with this, you know, it was better than everybody else. I was stronger than nearly everyone in there, except for maybe some guys that were much heavier than me.
I think I was around about 185, 190, something like that. And, um, that was a real turning point because it was like, what do you want to do with your life? And I mean, you [00:04:00] know, um, Going to do something or could this be the future? So I said, I don't want any part of this. I mean, it really, I grew up on a farm as a kid and just like, it was a free spirit.
I still am like, I don't like to never really work for anybody. I like to do my own thing, my own, create my own destiny. So it really impacted me being in there and being a number and not, you know, not being in control. And, um, so I said, right. When I get out of here. And to get myself set up, I'm going to pursue this bodybuilding and I didn't know exactly where it was going to lead, but I knew that I was putting my energy into something positive.
And maybe I would get a job in a gym or maybe I'd get my own gym and maybe I'd be able to win some contests or something like that. I think that's about as far as I was thinking, but I knew it's, it's hard to describe. It's like. It was [00:05:00] destined. I almost knew that I was going to do this. Um, so I did not straight away.
I had to get a job. I had to get a place to live and everything. And, uh, then that became my mission. But all this time that I was preparing for that, I was already like reading everything I could get and buying the magazines or I got a funny story. I gotta tell you, I wasn't exactly buying. I don't have to buy the magazine, so there's a news agent.
There's a, there's a bookstore in England called W. A. Smith, and I used to go in W. A. Smith and read them and then I, you know, just like walk out with it. Right. So many years later, not so long ago, about five years later, I did a seminar and, uh, we had a documentary movie and all this stuff. Um, and I told this story.
I've taken the magazines from W. A. Smith and, uh, about a week later, uh, arrived [00:06:00] at the gym, a letter from W. A. Smith, somebody at W. A. Smith with a 100 pound voucher in there to spend at W. A. Smith, and they said, maybe, maybe you can stop pinching our magazines now. So I thought I'd throw that in there, that's a funny story, uh, but anyway, I, I was just like.
gather as much information as I could reading all these magazines, books. I bought books on nutrition, um, everything. I was just devouring all this information. And, um, I think I was always like a straight, like, logical thinker. And I read this stuff by Arthur Jones and then Mike Mensah about the high intensity training and the principles.
What really, I mean, What really, uh, triggered muscle growth and the role of genetics and all these things that really weren't covered in the magazines. I mean, we're, you know, [00:07:00] we were sold a dream, right? Everyone was sold a dream, like, you know, you do Arnold's chest routine, you're gonna look like Arnold and do Robbie Robinson's bicep routine.
You're gonna have biceps like Robbie and just drink your protein and all that. So, um, I found this information fascinating. And then I put it into action and I was always very analytical and I have kept a training diary literally from my first workout. Every workout I've got logged down, all the weights, everything, all the diets, supplements.
And, uh, you know, later on in the professional career, career, the performance enhancing stuff, which, you know, is, is all part of it as a professional. So I logged it all down and, uh, You know, I could see what was working, what wasn't working because I had a plan. And if I change something, I would just change one thing at a time [00:08:00] and see if that was a positive or a negative.
Um, so I found that if I trained too often, or if it did too much volume, my progress would just come to a halt. And, uh, often I got over trained and then I'd take a week off and come back and then start growing again. And so, um, Not only did it make sense in theory, it was working in practice. And I didn't know anyone else that was really analyzing.
I'm almost, almost like, um, my own experiment. I mean, I was keeping notes like a scientist would, like every workout, everything. And, um, so that's how I kind of got this system from Arthur Jones with the machines and his principles that was adapted by Mike Mensah. And then I kind of adapted that myself with my own experiences and so on.
And, uh, you know, [00:09:00] Arthur Jones was a genius, but he wasn't a competitive bodybuilder, and he wasn't training competitive bodybuilders. So his routines were really brief and really kind of limited in the exercises he was doing, where as a competitive bodybuilder, You need to do a little bit more variety of exercises to fully develop all the muscles and the smaller muscles.
You know, the lateral head of the deltoid, the rear deltoid. Uh, you've got different, um, you know, the long head of the tricep, which needs to be stretched. And then you've got the medial head, which is working more when you're on the side and so on and so on. So, um, mine was kind of a hybrid between the more traditional bodybuilding and, uh, Arthur Jones very brief bodybuilding.
Workouts. I mean, Arthur Jones's workout, what he recommended was a whole body workout a couple of times a week, which for an average person that would be great, yeah, I understand, but as for a competitive [00:10:00] bodybuilder, it, it wasn't enough. You didn't get a full physique by just doing one exercise per body part.
So, um, It was with this, you know, that I developed my, my system. And then since retiring, I've been helping and training other people from a variety of backgrounds, some competing, some not competing. And the same principles apply. You just have to adapt it to the individual a little bit, um, with their physique, uh, their mechanics, and very importantly, their recovery ability.
Um, very, I have this story that I. Stole from Mike Mensah, but I, that I give at my seminars, uh, is very basic, but analogy, but it gets it across like muscle growth is an adaptation to a stress. So if your body is already accustomed to a level of stress, it has no reason to adapt or you know, the body [00:11:00] is always trying to keep balance.
So why does it, why does it need to change? It needs to change as a protective mechanism. to protect itself from a level of stress that it's not used to. Um, so you've got to continually push that envelope. Um, but equally on the other side, you have to recover from that stress. So there has to be a time in order to recover and further time in order to overcompensate or in this case, um, Get stronger and a bigger muscle So I tell this story at a seminar like okay Imagine your hand you get some sandpaper and you rub it on your hand until it's all red raw and it's a bit bloody You've damaged it.
Yeah now your body's like hey, it's damaged. I need to like Reinforce myself in case this is gonna happen again. So the skin will develop like little a little thicker and a little stronger because [00:12:00] you, you know, if you allow time to pass before you start rubbing on it again with a piece of sandpaper, if it's a little bit red and, you know, it's not quite healed and you just rub it again, you're not really getting anywhere.
So it's very simplistic, but it kind of gets the point across to people. And, uh, it's very hard for people to it seems that Uh, the intensity of the effort is the key factor, not the length, not the volume, because we always believe in like, you know, surely more is better. People used to say to me, Oh, you're Mr.
Olympia. You're like the best in the world. You must be training like five or six hours a day. I'm like, no, I'm training 45 to 60 minutes, four times a week maximum. And, uh, trust me, if I had to train 12 or 14 hours a day to be Mr Olympia, I would have been doing it, [00:13:00] but it wouldn't, it wouldn't be helpful.
You know, I was driven. I wanted to be the best. I wanted to be the best and I wanted to be the best that I could be. More importantly, I think it was my own personal challenge as much as a, uh, competition with other people and a professional. Sport and so on. So, um, I was doing what was necessary and I was able to, uh, take my physique to a new level in bodybuilding.
I'm known now as the game changer because it was almost like bodybuilding before Doreniate and bodybuilding after Doreniate. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, that's up to people to decide, but there was definitely a shift, um, because I brought to the table, um, Uh, physique that was bigger and, uh, you know, in better condition than anyone had seen before at that point.
Absolutely. Now, did you find that most people [00:14:00] nowadays, they, are they overtraining their recovery? It's two different concepts because a lot of times people aren't getting enough sleep. They're not enough to, to recover. It's not just about sleep. I mean, sleep's important, but you need to have time off. Uh, in between the workouts, uh, to recover.
Well, that's assuming that you work out enough in the first place to stimulate the growth where what I see is, look, if you've never done any exercise before, if you do 10 pushups, that's something that your body's not used to. So maybe 10 pushups are going to work for, you know, a couple of weeks and so on.
But, uh, from my observation, people tend to develop. for the first year, two years, 18 months, two years, at which point their body has adapted to the level of intensities that they're training at. [00:15:00] And then they're just spinning the wheels. You know, you can go to a gym today, go check out the people in there, go back in 12 months.
They look the same. Um, because at this point you've got to really, you've got to really push it. And, uh, it's, it's very uncomfortable to do that. First of all, some people just don't want to do that. They don't want to go. to that extent where you're going to failure, absolute failure on sets. Um, and it requires a lot of mind, muscle focus and concentration to really be able to do that.
Um, so those steps have to be in place. First of all, there needs to be enough intensity involved that is unusual stress for your body. So if you're, um, curling a 30 pound dumbbell for 10 reps today, And I come back in a year's time, you're still carrying a 30 pound dumbbell for 10 reps, your biceps will be exactly the same as they was a year ago.
I mean, that's a fact. Right. [00:16:00] You know, um, something needs to have increased. Um, so it's a combination of people not really, uh, training hard enough and concentrating and focusing enough, uh, and trying to compensate for that by doing more. So, more volume and more often and so on and that that just doesn't work if more volume was the deciding factor then surely you would start out training an hour a day then it would be two hours and you know after 10 years you you would train all day if that was the increase the factor but it's not increase um you got to push the intensity and increase the resistance resistance that's what it's all about Um, I, you know, I, I always say you can take any subject and you can make it sound as complicated or as simple as you want.
I choose to try and make things sound simple, uh, because they are, [00:17:00] you know, it's the stronger the muscle is, uh, for in, in bodybuilding case, I mean, you could get stronger in a, in a low rep range, like two or three reps without increasing muscle mass. You're just recruiting and you're able to recruit more.
and so on. So a powerlifter could get strong in those reps and might not necessarily get bigger. But if you're doing like 8 to 12 reps on, you're getting stronger in that range. Now you're doing a 40 pound dumbbell and a 45 getting bigger. So it's very simple, really. Uh, that's why I really try to insist with people that I, that I coach and that I help that they keep a record of things.
You know, keep a record of your weights, and that can help as a motivational tool as well. Okay, last week I benched 200 pounds for 8 reps. So, this time around, I've got a definite goal. I've got to get 9 reps, or 10 reps, [00:18:00] or I've got to, you know, There's a goal there when you're going in the gym. This is very important as well.
A lot of people, the majority of people just wander in the gym and, Okay, what I'm going to do today, I'm going to do some chest. I'm going to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I mean, this is great. This is fine. If you just want to In general fitness and you want to build a certain level and then you're happy with that and you're just cruising but Be honest with yourself, you know, if you really want to push it and build a physique That's not that's not going to get you where you want to be So, you know what that I really you were one of the really just trying to put as much as possible into the actual set and So you had the centric but you were on that really popularized You And showed the effects of the eccentric.
Can you walk people through as far as say, and I know you did this at Swiss where you work with Mindy O'Brien. Yeah, let's break down a rep. I mean, you've got sets and they're made of reps, [00:19:00] so let's break it down to the lowest level. You've got the rep now. It depends. You've got a, if you've got a negative and depending on the exercise, you may have a static or a peak contraction.
So let's say you're doing a pull down for back. Here, the peak contraction, you have resistance. Where a bench press at the top, you don't have resistance. So you could have two or you could have three phases of the rep. But let's, let's take an exercise that has three phases. So you have the positive, in this case a pull down, you have the positive.
That's the weakest part of the movement. People don't realize it. That's the weakest part. Okay, the positive. Then you got the contraction or the static. That's stronger than the positive. Then you got the negative. The negative is the strongest part of the rep mechanically. So when you're just [00:20:00] doing a set and you're just thinking, well, I'm going to pull it down and then kind of just like kind of let it go up.
You may even go to a point where, ah, I failed. I can't do any more. Well, no, you haven't, the muscle hasn't totally failed. It's failed on the positive part, which is the weakest part of the movement. It hasn't failed necessarily on the static and for sure it hasn't failed on the negative. So how can we try to stress the negative more?
That's by slowing it down, by being conscious of it and performing, let's say, let's take a pull down. So you pull it down. And then I teach people to hold it in a contracted position, just for, you know, a second or half a second, a definite pause. If you pull the weight down and you can't hold it there, then that tells you that you're using momentum.
You're using body movement, momentum to move the weight, otherwise you wouldn't be able to hold it there. So it's a good [00:21:00] trick to hold it there. And then slow down the negative. Consciously slow it down, feel it, feel the muscle dragging to try and exhaust that part of the, the, the rep. So that by the end of the set, ideally, you should have exhausted all three phases of the rep.
So, it's only one set. But you've done a hell of a lot of work in that one set, that you can't duplicate by doing more and more sets. Uh, my mentor used to have this saying, I, I, I pinch his sayings because they just get the point across so well. Um, so, if you had a stick of dynamite, and you tap it with a pencil, it's not gonna explode.
You can keep tapping it, you can tap it a hundred times, a thousand times, it's not gonna explode. Why? Because the intensity of the blow is not sufficient to get the reaction. But if you hit it with a [00:22:00] hammer one time, bang! You know, you've learned to bitch, right? So, it's kind of like that. You know, that's how I want somebody to do a set.
And if you do it like that, you don't need to do a lot. Because don't forget, we need to recover from that. So if we overdo it, we do too many like that, it's going to be very difficult to recover and your nervous system is going to be shattered as well. So there's a balance, you know, um, I'll do one or two sets depending on how the person performs, depending on that mind muscle connection, uh, where we're attempting to go to failure.
And prior to that, maybe two or even three lighter sets building up, which is important You're warming up, you're getting blood in the muscle, uh, you're preventing injury and, you know, you're getting [00:23:00] everything firing. But the sets that count, the only sets that are really relevant to me are those that are going to failure.
So, I'll do one or two sets per exercise and depending on the size of the body part, two to four exercises per body part. So what would you use to say what exercises did you find most effective to say work the chest or the back? What are some of the exercises you found really working? Right. Well, um, again, I was always thinking and reading and I got a lot from Arthur Jones as far as like, what really is the function of the muscle?
And, uh, his machines were, I mean, great, like they're hard to find now, especially the original ones, the earlier ones. Um, they were great. Um, so, you know, the traditional exercise that we all start with pecs is the bench press. And, you know, everybody's like, how much can you lift and how much can you bench press and all that stuff.
So, [00:24:00] um, I found, you know, I started doing with the bench, but I found it wasn't particularly good for me. I didn't have genetically great pecs. I didn't have those really low. Kind of pecs that Arnold had and Franco and they just bench and the pecs are doing all the work. So, um, I learned from Arthur Jones that, uh, a slight decline actually involves the pecs more as far as like bringing the upper arm down and across the body and takes away a little strain from the pec tendon where a lot of people, Um, who had pec tears is actually on the flat bench press because it puts a lot of strain on the tendon.
Um, so I was doing decline press, uh, incline press on a kind of low incline because I found if I went too high, and unfortunately, a lot of Olympic incline benches are set at an angle that I consider to be, Less than ideal [00:25:00] because they're too high. Do you like about 20 degrees, 30 degrees instead of 45?
About, about, yeah, about 20, 25 degrees I find is ideal. It's involving the pecs more than rather than too much front delt movement. Would that be the same for decline also? About 20, 30 degrees? Decline, yeah, a slight, doesn't need to be a steep decline. Um, and flies at various angles. Um, I did the pre exhaust principle, which Arthur really promoted and Mike Vencer as well, where you do an isolation exercise first and a compound exercise afterwards, but I couldn't find a suitable, really, isolation exercise.
Dumbbell fly, technically it's an isolation exercise, but it still, to some degree, is involving the triceps. Um, and then you have various pec deck type machines. Um, if you go very heavy on those, sometimes it can be [00:26:00] hard on your shoulder joint. And, uh, cable crossover as well. I tried and nothing really gelled.
So I kind of like mainly went with those three exercises. I didn't do a lot of pressing just because once my strength level got to a certain, you know, just getting the dumbbells up and down became a mission and a possible injury risk in itself. So if it was pure pushing, I preferred to do the barbell and then use the dumbbell with the flyers to get more range of motion and more stretch.
Um, With the back, um, I learned earlier on, uh, you know, reading the bodybuilding magazines, uh, the myth was, you know, if you have a wide grip, a wider grip, you get wider lats. But, um, with a closer or medium grip, there's more range of motion. With the lats, there's more stretch, there's more range of motion.[00:27:00]
The grip, the motion is very small and it tends to like, maybe target the teres, uh, uh, you know, uh, right at the top more than the lats itself. So I, uh, in, in the end, uh, settled on all close or medium grip exercises and I was fortunate enough, uh, fairly early on, uh, to get my own gym. very much. And, uh, I had a Nautilus blow machine in there, which is just an amazing piece of equipment.
The best piece of equipment you can get for your back, bar none. Now why is that and how do you do it properly? Because I see a lot of people not doing it right. Uh, the function of the lats is to bring the upper arm down and back. Whether you're in an upright position or bent over, that's the function.
And also To get a full contraction in the lats, the spine has to be slightly arched. If it's rounded, round like that, you're not getting a full [00:28:00] contraction. So you need, it's really important, form is important on everything. But on the back, it's tricky because you're connecting through the arms mostly, through the biceps, and you can't see it.
And if you're in the wrong position, your back's rounded, you're not going to get a full contraction. So I see very few people really training the back correctly. Um, going back to the pullover machine, it's from here all the way down, so a 180 degrees movement with the lats and bicep involvement. So every other exercise you can think of for your lats is really involving the biceps apart from if you use a dumbbell pullover across a bench that's involving the lats somewhat or a straight arm pulldown.
Um, but they can't compare to the Nautilus machine. And what you're doing with the pullover is you're pre exhausting the lats again. So it's [00:29:00] pure lats. There is no biceps involvement. So if you do pulldowns or rows, as the bicep is a smaller muscle than the lats, It could be that the biceps are failing.
There could be the weak link in the chain before the lats have reached 100%. So by doing the isolation first and exhausting the lats with the pullover machine, then going to the pulldowns and the rows, you're going to get more out of it because the biceps are going to be fresh when you go to the pulldowns and the lats are going to be already pre exhausted.
So then I'll get more out of the pulldowns. So, I always started with the pullovers, then it would be like cross grip pulldown, I started out using just a regular lamp machine, and then later on, um, uh, I had a relationship with the Hammer Strength, uh, company. Which, interestingly, was started by Gary Jones, who was the son of Arthur Jones.
Yep, yep. Um, and the mechanics on the [00:30:00] machines were great. Uh, so there was a pull down that kind of came out a little bit, swung out, so you get a little bit more motion and stretch, and back. That would be my second exercise, nearly always. Uh, of course, you know, I'm talking about in my professional career, uh, during my amateur days, I, you know, I tried a lot of things.
I used to do weighted chin ups and things like that. But slowly I kind of, process of elimination, got down to these exercises. Um, then I would do bent over rowing, which I would do either with a barbell, uh, which I did in a slightly different style, which eventually became known as the Yates row, because I was doing it with the body more, more upright, rather than bent over parallel to the floor.
So this put the, the lats in a mechanically stronger position and the mid traps were as well and it put the lower back in a very safe position. [00:31:00] So I would do that or I would do dumbbell rows, one arm at a time. Now you also use the reverse grip. I did until I got, until I got injured. Uh, I tore my bicep doing that, which I wouldn't say it was totally down to that grip.
It was more the fact that I was training too heavy. Uh, near to a competition, which is a lesson I learned, uh, I used to be like pretty much in competition shape, like six weeks out. And I was still trying to like push the off season poundages, which became too risky and really have no benefit because at that point you're not going to build muscle.
You just don't have enough calories and so on. So I coach people to kind of cruise in a little bit. Coming into the contest, rather than trying to go up. Um, so after that, I went, I switched to the overhand grip and, uh, then I'd finish with the base fully cable rows, which I would probably go with a medium grip on there.
Uh, I also like occasionally the [00:32:00] hammer strength seated row, which you could do one arm at a time. So they were the main basic exercises and I would finish with deadlifts, uh, which I would do. Uh, from kind of mid shin level so that I would keep the tension on the back all the time rather than putting it on the floor and then, you know, the legs and the glutes and they kick in for the initial lift.
Uh, so I wanted to keep the tension on the back and, uh, keep the injury risk to a minimum. Um, and at the end when, you know, the lats and everything are totally exhausted, I got more out of it from a bodybuilding point of view. Obviously, if you're a powerlifting, you know, talking about lifting poundages, then it would be a different approach.
But this was purely bodybuilding that I was interested in. Now for your legs, you, you also came up with something very unique and I haven't heard anyone else talk about it. You did the legs instead of the squat and you really good rationale. You know, I, I started out in early eighties, [00:33:00] so I mean, Tom Platz was the man, right?
And I love Tom Platz with his. His energy and his intensity and his passion. That's something, I mean, you just don't see that anymore. I like to think that I had that in my career, but I don't think you really see that in people's passion for training and pushing their limits physically and mentally. You just don't see that anymore.
Um, And, you know, Tom Platts had these legs that looked like they were from another planet. I mean, I've never seen anything remotely like that before. And he was said, like, you just got to squat, you're not going to get legs without squats. And I, and I went into the gym and the power rack was the altar that everyone prayed at and everyone was squatting and how much can you squat and everything.
So I started out squatting. Um, but after about, I think it was 18 months, two years, I wasn't training that long. I had a tear on my right hip. Uh, which eventually I had to have [00:34:00] surgery on. And, um, I went to the hospital for surgery. They measured everything, you know. And actually I had one leg that was, it's not that unusual apparently, but I had one leg that was a little bit shorter than the other one.
So when I was squatting down, my, my hips were tilting. So there's more pressure on one hip than the other one. And that's when I got the injury. And, you know, I tried to persevere. I tried to go back to squats, but I kept getting problems. So I'm like, look, I don't have a choice now. I need to try something else.
So I was using leg press or I was using a squat on a Smith machine where I could position myself. Um, and I could move my feet and I could get, uh, the bar very upright, upright stance. So I wasn't leaning forward. And I found I could do that, and I built up some pretty good pounding runs, I mean, and I was going, like, ass to the floor, fairly close stance, um, so it was [00:35:00] all quads, and, um, you know, I won six Mr.
Olympia titles, uh, without using squats, so I'm not saying that squats are not a great exercise, uh, and they're the toughest exercise in the book, man, if you're doing them properly, uh, but for me, for my structure, they weren't, working and they would became an injury risk. And I'm sure, you know, um, I have a little wear on my L five, but it's not too bad.
And I'm sure that if I had squatted my whole career with the kind of poundages I would need to do right, I would have much more problems with my back and my discs and so on. Unfortunately, I don't have any so. Uh, you know, it worked out for me. You also mentioned before that you could work the legs doing leg press without the peak.
And therefore, you're better. Is that correct? Can you [00:36:00] say that again, Ken, please? Um, I, I remember also hearing that you, you mentioned when you're doing legs, squats versus leg press. When you're doing leg press, it really isn't involved. When you're squatting, the back can fatigue and possibly you up, especially if you're using a heavier weight.
So you can, you can do it a little bit easier on leg press, but I, I always, um, was pre exhausting once. So I was doing leg extensions, heavy leg extensions to failure to pre exhaust the quads before I went onto the compound movement, whether that was a squat or, uh, a leg press. And, uh, I was also doing hack squats as well, which is a great exercise on the machine.
So, it would be leg extension, followed by smith machine squat or leg press, followed by hack squats. Those are, you know, I was doing three exercises for quads and maybe two for hamstrings and two for calves. So, it [00:37:00] wasn't a lot. It doesn't sound, if I write down a piece of paper, it doesn't sound a lot. But, trust me, uh, anyone that goes through that routine with me is, like, Either on the verge of throwing up, or they actually are throwing up.
Again, it's the intensity within the actual set. You can't, you can't imagine. You know, listen, if you're going to failure, true failure, where you can't do one more, even if somebody put a gun to your head, that's motivation. Imagine that, somebody putting a gun to your head, you'd probably get one more rep.
Well, you've got to get yourself in a frame of mind where You know, you feel that desperation, you feel that you, you push into that limit. And if you do that on legs, it's so exhausting the biggest muscles in your body, quads and, and your glutes, and you're going to failure. It's absolutely exhausting. And you just, one set will blow you away, and that's all you need to do after you've warmed up.
Of course. [00:38:00] Now the main body by using this style of training was yourself. Mike Manzer, KCV, um, that they would try and push themselves, you know, as hard the chance to train with Mike at all. And what was that like? I did train with Mike. Of course, I grew up reading everything that I could with Mike Manzer.
And he's somewhat of a hero of mine. Um, and I met him in Venice, California, when I went out to do photo shoots. I think it was 92. I trained with him in 92 and a little bit in 93. And, uh, he said, what are you doing? I said, I'm doing this. And, you know, each exercise I'm warming up, then I'm going to failure.
And, um, then the weight by maybe 10%, and then I'll do another set to failure. So I'm nailing it twice just to make sure the job's done. And he was like, well, you know, I got all this, uh, feedback from all these clients. I'm [00:39:00] training in the gym. And, uh, you know, I realized when I was competing, I was probably doing More than it was necessary.
So I suggest you cut back even more and just like basically do one set on each exercise to failure and So I did that I cut back even a little bit more and You know, I was already Either Mr. Olympia or just got second in the Mr. Olympia When we met, so, you know, I was already a very advanced. Um, but I do believe cutting back a little bit more allowed me to, you know, to, uh, advance even, even more.
And that's because of the recovery. We see that it's in power where the stronger you become, the more time that you actually need to recover from those workouts, just cause so hard in the nervous system, absolutely fantastic point, which is flies in the face of [00:40:00] everything. That we were told when we started training.
I mean, I used to read the Weider magazines and it was like, okay, Beginner's chest routine, or beginner's routine, three or four times a week. Intermediate routine, five times a week. Advanced routine, six times a week. And it just got to be more and more. And here's the thing, you start training, you can do more and recover.
You can make mistakes and recover because You are not able to generate that amount of, uh, intensity or force. So let's say you start training and you're squatting, for argument's sake, you're squatting 100 pounds for 10 reps. And years later you're doing 3 or 400 pounds for reps. So your muscles that are moving the weight have got bigger and stronger, but your nervous system is the same nervous system that you had when you started training.[00:41:00]
It's easier for an advanced trainer to overtrain than it is for a beginner because a beginner simply can't exert that force. And they don't have that mind to muscle connection that you get over time, over repetition. You get this, where you're able to switch that on. Um, and I believe that's really where, um, the anabolics come in because as people get more advanced, they get to a point where they can't really recover from the work being put out.
So that's where the anabolics come in and that's where they, uh, can be useful if you like that term. Well, I think the anabolics, they prevent you from overtraining you. There's a whole, you know, you're always, they'll, they'll speed the recovery up. Yeah. You'll get to a point where you're plateauing because If you try to do more, you just can't recover from it and your body's like, Hey, you know, it's up, you know, I'm not going to keep doing this.
[00:42:00] Uh, and so it just, it just, you just can't recover, you reach a plateau. So that's, uh, when you've got a higher hormone level, you're able to recover, uh, more quickly. You know, if you don't, um, you know, sit on your couch watching football, Pop in Dynabol and start growing muscle. You know, you gotta, you gotta, uh, put the stress on and they're just going to help you to recover from it.
That's all. Now, when you're getting ready next time Mr. Olympia's, um, what did your nutrition look like off season and then also on season? What portion of carbohydrates, proteins, fat do you find effective for yourself? Well, I would, um, with protein around. Somewhere between one and one and a half grams per pound of body weight.
And then, um, I mean, now, I would advise people to take in more fat [00:43:00] than I was probably taking in back then because we were like, you know, fat is bad, which is somewhat of a myth we know now. Uh, fat's a useful source of energy and it has many roles to play in the body and hormone production, absorption of, uh, vitamins and, and so on.
Um, Well, yeah, so that the protein will be like maybe up to one and a half grams per pound of body weight. And then, uh, the thing that really sliding scale, the thing that varies will be the carbohydrate, because carbohydrate is just energy. It's just energy production convert to glucose gives you energy.
So the protein level and the fat intake would stay the same. Thank you. whether it was off season or getting ready for a contest. So the variable factor would be the carbohydrates. And, um, I had a fairly fast metabolism and the more muscle you build, [00:44:00] obviously it's like putting a bigger engine in your car, the more fuel that requires, even if it's just ticking over.
Right. So the bigger, the more energy I required in terms of carbohydrate. So, um, I would say I was in the off season. at least full carbohydrates to protein. So I was probably taking like 800 grams of carbs in the off season up to 800 grams and then getting ready for a contest. I might start on about 600, but I would increase my activity levels through kind of low intensity um cardio.
Like, simply like fast walking or stationary cycling and I wasn't trying to like blast it for cardio fitness necessarily, just really calorie burning without interfering and putting more stress on [00:45:00] my body and interfering from the recovery from the weights, which was the fine thing. And then it would be a matter of just gauging it every week.
Every two weeks, maybe I drop a little bit more carbohydrates, just to keep the weight loss consistent. Um, I would have an initial weight loss in the first two or three weeks when I change, when I drop my carbohydrates, because I would be losing water. So, I would lose quite quickly, the first few weeks I might lose, I might lose 10 or 12 pounds in the first three weeks, but it's not all body fat, some water.
And then it would be like, I would probably average two pounds a week going into the contest. Um, so it was a steady loss, you know, some calorie deficit from carbohydrate reduction and some increase through the activity I used to do 45 minutes on a stationary bike or fast walking [00:46:00] like twice a day, once in the morning, once in the evening, getting ready for a contest.
I'd practice the posing and stuff as well, which that would also burn calories. Absolutely. So actually it's a bit of both, you know, a bit of a reduction, a bit of an increase in the output. Yeah. Now you also do small seminars in Spain and also you do some online coaching. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, I do, um, a certification for personal trainers. It's called a master certification in DYHIT. So that's my training methods which I've documented. Um, I actually do it in various locations, but because we've been locked down, uh, I haven't been moving so much. So I've done a few camps out in, uh, Venice at Goal's Gym there, which is great because people get to experience Goal's Gym as well and hang out and, you know, we go to lunch together and all this stuff as well.
Um, and I do them in Spain. I've got one coming up in September, September the 13th, I [00:47:00] think it is. If people are interested, they can go dy goal. com. Hit dot com and take a look. So what it is is I'm looking for some of this already a personal trainer or somebody experienced on they come and train with me in a small group.
I take three people at a time. So we train together and I coach them on, you know, they're really training themselves, but they learn how to coach the other people as well. So we're working together in a group and we do also the theoretical. Part as well, which, um, they have an examination with at the end.
So we have a practical and theoretical as well. So the idea is they're a master trainer in my methods because they learn directly from myself, and then they're able not only to go and, uh, train people in that methods, they can train, uh, personal trainers as well. So it's, it is like a level down so that way they can actually make revenue and make their, whatever they're paying me, [00:48:00] make that back and, and hopefully more.
So it's a master level certification. And, um, I got about around 40 guys now around the world from all over the world that have come to train with me and had that experience and, you know, time training hard together and the fun and people become friends with the other people on a group and all that stuff.
So it's, uh, it's, it's a great experience. I have fun as well. Um, so I do that and I have, um, an online training platform. Where I help people remotely with their training, with their personalized nutrition plan, where they want to gain weight, lose weight, whatever it is. That's called D. Y. Academy. And, um, I have a wide, wide variety of people on there because H.
I. T. training, as I say, you've got to adapt it to the individual. You don't have to be a competitive bodybuilder to do this. If you want to change And you know the term bodybuilder is confusing [00:49:00] sometimes for people because they think well, you know bodybuilder But anyone that wants to change their physical experience is a bodybuilder.
Their physical appearance is a bodybuilder, right? Because how can you change your appearance? You can lose body fat and or build muscle. You can't change your skeletal structure So if you want to change the way you look you want to get leaner, you know People talk about this. Oh, I just want to get more toned What does this mean what this term tone?
It's just a nonsense term. It means you've lost body fat and you've built muscle So you look firmer. You might call it toned, but it's all bodybuilding So I have from you know, like ladies that want to lose weight. I want to look better I want to look firmer to guys that are doing competition. So I just adapt The training and the diet to the individual the same basics always apply, you know, we're human beings You And we've got muscles in the same place, uh, just some people, uh, have, uh, different [00:50:00] mechanics.
Maybe they have injury problems. Maybe they have different goals, uh, and, uh, different recovery abilities and things like that. So I kind of figure that out with the people as we go along and, uh, adapt and get to an ideal, uh, regime for them. That's fantastic. Great way of learning. Basically it's in the actual gym, which is the best earn instead of just strictly theoretical, really appreciate you putting that type of information because it's not a lot of people that utilizing the type of training, they're still thinking that more is better and we're seeing that.
And unfortunately we're seeing it definitely with the anabolics that has gotten, you know, you were part of the panel in 2016. You know, everybody is, it's a, it's a culture now, right? Everybody wants a shortcut, and the anabolics have always been around. I mean, they've been around before I got involved in the sport.
They've been around definitely since, uh, the Mr. Olympia, uh, the conception of Mr. Olympia, which was mid 60s. They've probably been [00:51:00] around since, in some primitive form, since the mid 50s. I'm, I'm not sure. I'm sure testosterone was around. I mean, testosterone was used. Um, by the Nazis in the Second World War.
Yeah. For their soldiers in the SS to make them more aggressive and so on. So, I mean, that's how long testosterone has been around. So, it's new, but when I was coming up, it was a little bit more underground. It wasn't something like in the mainstream of the public and it was guys that were using it that, well, you know, they were fairly serious.
They were powerlifting or they were bodybuilding. They wanted to compete. Now it's everybody looking, you know, for a shortcut, right? They've gone mainstream. You've got guys in the movies, want to get in shape for a role. You've got guys in hip hop. I mean, you know, you can see who these guys are. So it's become mainstream.
And just like girls want to get breast implants or, you know, [00:52:00] Botox or something like that. That's, guys are looking at it like that. It's just a short cut, uh, cosmetic shortcut to. to where they want to be. And I'm not judging anybody is up to the individual that they want to do. Um, so guys are just taking steroids and you know, they're getting some results obviously because they're going in the training and they've got high hormone level, but they don't really know how to train properly and they don't really learn because they're getting some quick results.
They're not getting the best results they could get, but they're getting results and it's made people lazy. And, um, you know, people just don't want to be uncomfortable these days. They don't want to look. For me, this was a, you know, in my day, it was a badge of honor, you know, how much can you lift? How hard?
Oh, this, I heard about this guy. Here is trains insane. And now again, I mentioned Tom Platt's case of the eight or, uh, Mike Mensah, people like that. Um, the culture has changed. I don't know about popping or weightlifting and maybe it's [00:53:00] totally different, but in the bodybuilding, um, the culture has changed.
I don't even really see anybody debating that much about how to train, uh, or, or new methods of training or anything. I don't, I don't really see anything. No, no, no one's really kind of pushed it or even talked about it. I really appreciate you continuing yet this cause again, more is, but put, put effort into the actual set.
And if you do that, you recover. And if you overdo it, then you up seeing me, you know, in the clinic and I have to fix that. So yeah, you have to be careful. I got guys that come here that have been training for years and they come and train with me for a few weeks or a month. And they're blown away that in a few weeks, literally every workout, they're getting bigger and stronger.
And they can't believe it. Like I, I, I progressed more in two months than I did in the last four years. Yeah. [00:54:00] Because you, you're doing it right now, but they just didn't, they just didn't know. And even oftentimes people read, uh, something or they watch a video, but they still don't really get it. You know, they don't get it right.
So sometimes, you know, hands on is the only way. I got a guy now who's training with me, Gabriele Andrulli. He got second in the Mr. Olympia in the wheelchair category. And, uh, he's been with me now for two weeks. It's like literally, you know, his workout is getting visibly bigger, and it's amazing. Because he wasn't able to push to that level on his own.
Now you talked a number of times as far as the mind muscle connection. What is that? And how do you create that some strategies in order to learn on to do that? I think you have to, um, it's a kind of a visualization process. Um, [00:55:00] so I would always take time before I went to the gym. It doesn't need to be a lot of time.
It could be five minutes. First of all, you should be keeping a record of your workouts. So let's see what we did last time. And that's, okay, I did eight reps with 200 pounds. Okay, today I want to do nine reps. Let me visualize how to feel in the gym, how I'm gonna, you know, portion and you get that last rep.
And it's important to, to understand somewhat the function of the muscle. And you visualize it stretching. and contracting against the weight and it's, it's a form of meditation almost because what's meditation is like you're focusing on one thing whether it's your breathing or it's a spot on the wall or something to the exclusion of everything else.[00:56:00]
So when I'm in the gym and I'm feeling the muscle stretch and I'm feeling it contract against the weight I'm in there in the muscle and nothing else exists. I don't know anything else. You know This is also a mental Benefit like you forget about whatever your perceived problems are your relationship your Your your bills your work, whatever shit it is, man You know ideally that's all gonna Evaporate and you're just in that muscle and there and you're contracting it and you understand how it feels when it contracts.
That's one thing I do with when people come to me and they train, especially on the back training, I'm like okay let's get a lightweight, let's do pull downs and this is what I want you to do and I want to pull and I want you to arch and squeeze and hold it here. Now how that feels in your lap. I'll stick my finger right in the fibers, feel how that [00:57:00] feels.
How does it feel? It feels like it's like cramping Right. That's the feeling you've gotta maintain at all times, even when it's getting really heavy and really difficult, and your body and your brain is trying to find a way out of this, trying to bring other muscles into play or create momentum, because that's the instinct.
That is the thing you've gotta override. So, it all takes a bit of time, but the first Step is to be conscious of it Okay, I'm working the biceps. What do the biceps do? They bend the arm and they supinate the wrist and let me feel like you know as it's contracting and shortening and squeezing and I'm in there and I'm lengthening the muscle and Visual come become the muscle almost I'm gonna stand like Bruce Lee soon, but Bruce Lee was a huge inspiration for me with this philosophy and everything I almost took Bruce Lee philosophy and put it into, uh, into bodybuilding where the mind [00:58:00] is, is one of the keys.
And it absolutely is. The mind is the key, probably in any pursuit or anything that you're doing. I agree. I agree. That will limit you in any way. Dorian, thank you so, so much for spending time with us and get your knowledge, your wisdom, your experience, invaluable to a lot of people. And I know that changed a lot of people and I tell definitely reach out next time I do Swiss, definitely have you up and see if we can also set up a certification.
Uh, day for you here. You can take people through. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. If we can do a, I do a week in Toronto, so if you're in Canada, you can, you know, it's a long way to come to Spain, uh, over in Europe and travel at the moment, it's difficult and all that stuff. So it would be great if I can do one in Canada.
I haven't done one before. I've done it in the U S but Canada knows. So definitely. Yeah. Let's talk about that. We'll get the Swiss conference on. Um, Coordinated. So it all happens in the same week. That would be awesome. Thank you so, so much. And I look [00:59:00] forward to it. Well, Swiss live on one wants to know more about my training methods and D Y H I T or D Y Academy.
You can go there. You can look at my blogs on a D Y nutrition. I've got my nutrition company in Europe and we're coming to States, um, and Canada as well. So, uh, D Y nutrition. I have a lot of blogs on there about. training, different body parts and my approach. So all those, uh, sites, you can find, uh, more information.
And of course you can find me on Instagram as well on Facebook. Yeah. I'll put all the links along with this video. Take care of my friend. This was really appreciate it. All right. Thanks Ken. It's been a pleasure, mate. Thank you, mate.
